Emeritus Professor Toyin Falola in this interview by LASISI OLAGUNJU speaks on the state of the nation, Yoruba activism, protests and what he called the adhocratic responses of the Bola Tinubu government to the current demands of the people for good condition of living.
You are very much involved in a conference on Yoruba activisms coming up next week in Ibadan. What informed the choice of that theme, sir?
To answer this question, the conference, in honour of the late Professor Atanda, will inquire about the past and present of the Yoruba through rebellions, resistance, and insurgencies in pre-colonial, colonial, and postcolonial eras. The inspiration of the topic is the realization of the global need for dissenting voices and constructive criticisms, the lack of which has brought us all to the current state of the nation. The Yoruba culture is democratically structured on the right to check the powers of the leaders with its many checking agencies. There has been a need to ask whether Yoruba activism from cultural nuances are still relevant in contemporary societies. Are there links between the contemporary activities of people of Yoruba origin and their inherent ability to criticize?
You dropped out of secondary school to participate in the Agbekoya movement of the late 1960s. Why did you take that risk given the fact that you could have lost your life, and the world would have lost the huge talent deposited in you?
There is no meaning to life when what we do is just to live it without engaging the environment, asking questions and driving changes in society. Apparently, my membership of the Agbekoya did not mean the end of the road to my academic sojourn but a stop-by to put society in order in the little way a small boy like me, back then, could do.
The Agbekoya rose as an activist group to combat exorbitant taxation, destitution, and the brutal treatment of the cocoa farmers in then-Western Nigeria. Their resistance back then gave the postcolonial government a tough time and sent them a reminder to make the citizens a priority.
I was influenced by “”Paitor,” my maternal grandfather, who was actively involved in the movement. His commitments to the group and what he did for them spurred me to be actively involved at a younger age. At first, as an adolescent, I was not able to partake in many of the actions because of my age, but I was sent to gather intelligence for the Agbekoya and became relevant in the groundwork that formed the strategies of the Agbekoya revolts.
The level of my education, at the time, was relevant to the movement. I was called “akowe,” and it was an acclamation that positioned me like a superstar at that moment. So, with the commitment of “Paitor” and the resourcefulness of “Akowe, “I became an important part of the movement.
One of my most fond memories of my participation was in November 1968, when I found one of the Dane guns of the movement and, out of curiosity and against the warnings of my grandfather, shot at the tree, causing commotion and confusion in the environment and among the Agbokoya troops. “No worries,” the Agebokoya leader at the time caught me and made my eyes see “shege” by tying me up and beating the curiosity out of me, banning and sending me back to the headquarters of the troops to serve as a deterrent to other young boys around.
The banishment was not the end of the road for me with the troops. I became a rearguard for them from a distance and supplied tactical intelligence for the organization. More so, I became what I would like to call the chronicler as I tried to transmit the knowledge of the activities of the group in writing, documenting the efforts, as you can see in my second memoir, Counting the Tiger’s Teeth.
One day, there was a police raid of Akufo Village, whereby my grandfather and Pasitor died in the process, and I was compelled to flee the village so as not to be caught in the crossfire, leaving me no opportunity to mourn their death. This experience motivated my decision to drop out of school and be fully committed to the Agbekoya struggle.
In my making, the movement is part of it. I don’t get angry. If you abuse or insult me, you are wasting your time, as I will never reply. You cannot hear my side of a story in any fight or conflict. As you waste your time narrating stories, I move on in the trajectory of eternal glory. I am working while you are sleeping; I am strong when you are battling with weakness. The more you fight me, the more successful I become. I am like a snail covered in the shell of a rock! I can disguise myself from a cat to a hyena, but only you don’t know when. When you see me as a goat, I have converted myself into a lion.
The country is in the throes of protests over the high cost of living and other challenges. What are your perspectives on the protests?
I have always held the view that the welfare of the people is the greatest good and duty of any government, and when that government fails, it is knocking on the door of provocation of the masses. Nigerian successive governments have continuously forgotten about prioritizing the welfare of the people they serve, causing them untold hardship, hunger and other difficulties.
It almost seems like the nation is not working, and the number of people that japa keeps increasing now and then. It is only logical that when people get frustrated, they will resist and fight back. It has happened before in Nigerian history, and it is happening now. It has happened recently in other parts of Africa; see Kenya, for instance, and it is happening now.
My view is that protest is the fundamental right of the people, and the government should not be hostile to it. Instead, measures could be put in place to ensure that there will be no violence, but saying that people should not protest the bad leadership they have had for a long time would not be possible.
In addition, the government must continuously show great commitment to alleviating the suffering of the people. Many of the momentary and temporary solutions the government is providing will solve so little in the issues the people are agitating against. Protest is the right of the masses to express their dissatisfaction, but the masses must not also be given to destruction. If chaos agents destroy shops and buildings, it is time to stop.
Sir, you should have comments on the involvement of traditional rulers, religious leaders, and your colleagues in academia in the various crises besetting the country. Do you think these people are doing the right thing on these matters? What should ideally be their role?
I find it a duty for people of influence in the country to make contributions and observations about the situation of the country, and the traditional rulers, religious leaders and people in academics have more responsibilities in this regard. These three sets of people have always played an important part in the socio-economic development of Nigeria, and they have been known for their readiness to speak truth to power. Unfortunately, only a few of them take those roles as expected, and it is affecting the integrity ascribable to these portfolios.
The ideal role of these sets of people is to be the agents of social change and the standard bearers for the people. Many persons under these categories that I know are actively doing as expected, but more have either been on the fence or taken sides with those that should be corrected. I condemn those who convert themselves to prostitutes, collecting money from the government to spread fake reports about achievements.
Some Nigerian leaders, including the daughter of the president, have said it is too early to criticize the Tinubu government. Indeed, the president’s daughter said he should be given three years before we assess and criticize him. Given your knowledge of how governments work, when is the right time to tell the president how well he has performed?
Well, the President himself stated that he would be hitting the ground running immediately after he gets to the office, so he should not be surprised that people are holding him for the expectations he had created. However, it is understandable that becoming a Nigerian President may be one of the most difficult leadership roles in the world, but once you buy your ticket to the contest, you have signified that you are taking up the difficulties.
It may be hard to turn the fortune of the nation around within a short period, but the least the people expect is that the situation should not get worse than it was before the president ascended to office. It is the desired but not the most prioritized needs of the people that the situation should sharply turn positively, but it is the most important thing that it does not get worse.
Apparently, the situation has been worse than what was received during the Buhari tenure. The rate of hunger and poverty in the country has now made the security breaches and challenges seem like secondary problems of the country because hunger is the new pestilence. The least Tinubu and his administration could have done was to ensure that the situation did not get worse, and he failed at it. The president’s daughter, with a bloated belly of food, is asking the hungry to speak in their graves!
We’ve lately been reading about government officials at various levels donating food and other support items to their people, and some would wonder why they are donating what they were elected to provide. What is your view on this mode of governance?
The current government, especially after the proliferation of possibilities of protest, has been tilting towards adhocracy, a government that only provides temporary and momentary solutions instead of long-term solutions. It saddens me to see billions of naira (that would be embezzled) shared among Nigerians as a means of poverty alleviation. National resources in the form of food items are given out without considering the need to increase productivity and supply of consumables. When these things are consumed and are no longer in circulation, we would be circled back to the beginning.
In addition, some of these officials who use the nation’s resources for personal aggrandizement, as if he or she had done something extraordinary, are praised because only a few government officials now even consider distributing those resources. So, the few that now provide the bare minimum are often celebrated because we are too deprived of politicians who are conscionable enough to provide the barest minimum.
We are developing a benevolent state where a person in power sees himself as a God. “I, as the governor,” donate 100 bags of rice to you. The language is that the money comes from his pocket. He is your saviour. The social contract has broken down.
At almost 64 years after Independence, the Country is still Grappling with Challenges of Unity and Nation Building. Do you sincerely think this country will ever be one?
Are we in the right position for national unity? No. But will we ever achieve such unity? Yes. The issue affecting national unity is the various conflicts of interest at different levels of governance and different diversities. The continuous superimposition of personal or selfish interests over national interests draws back every effort made. When the nation achieves the anticipated unity, many personal interests of supposed stakeholders and opinion leaders would be affected, and as such, they lay ambush for such efforts.
For there to be unity, Nigerians must first be intentional about those who lead the country and always check if they are following the blueprints of national unity. In addition, the sense of patriotism must be re-engineered into the citizens because if they are no longer convinced of the reasons for the preached unity, there can never be any unity.
The politicians are united. The thieves are united. It is time to unite as citizens, working to transform ourselves. We cannot succeed if we are divided over religion and ethnicity. Poverty has no colour or “tribe.” A poor Muslim and a poor Christian struggle with poverty.
Opinions are divided over whether, in true federalism, local governments should be under the states/regions or should constitute an autonomous component of the nation-state. Where do you belong in this controversy, sir?
The true intention of the drafting of any federalist constitution is to provide grassroots access to governance and ensure that answers and solutions are given to the questions and needs of the people as soon as they arrive. The concentration of power in the hands of a government might not assist in achieving this reality. Hence, there is a need for the autonomy of the local government within the confines of any amended constitution. To ensure that they are properly checked, there could be supervisory roles from a joint board or efforts of both the Federal and the State Governments in order to achieve efficiency. However, whatever we do will not succeed if we remain immoral, bankrupt and corrupt.
If you would vote tomorrow to choose a president for Nigeria, what attributes would you want in that person?
The first parameter is whether or not such an individual understands the plight of the people enough that he or she has a befitting blueprint to solve their recurring problems and keep their current situations from degenerating further. This can not be done if such a person is not as empathetic about the people and compassionate towards their situation. In addition, the driver of the Nigerian state must have a strong and convincing economic understanding and plans for the job.
Nigeria and Venezuela share so many things – many of them unpleasant. Given the recent election in that country that saw the incumbent declared elected for a third term, do you nurse any fear that a president in Nigeria may also one day sit tight in power?
Well, the political scenery of Nigeria would not allow the possibility of a President sitting in power beyond the attributed years per tenure. This is because there are too many political inclinations and interests at stake, and I do not believe that anyone in the Country would fold their hands to allow it to happen. It could happen for continuous domination of a particular party or conspiracy, but it would be impossible for one person to hold power over it. That is one thing I am convinced Nigerians would not compromise on.
It is said that Prof Toyin Falola does not know the exact number of books he has written. Is that true? What book or books are you presently working on, and what legacy do you think someone of your intellectual productivity should leave for those coming behind?
Well, I often must look back to know the number of books I have published, but the number of papers and contributions in journals are in the thousands that I have since lost count of. I have so far authored or co-authored about 300 books, but my presentations, papers, and articles are not something I can still readily remember in their volumes; I try to have a record of them, and the ones I can get are in their thousands.
I still have quite a few books I am writing in bits and batches; there are many because I write all of them at the same time. However, they tend to address basic and contemporary issues and development in Africa and Nigeria and give manuals of insights on the transformative resources and references for the continent. I am writing on the subjects of diversity, minorities, education, politics, development, culture, agencies and others at the present.
The most important legacy of any scholar of my standard is to ensure that those coming behind are motivated enough to expand further the epistemological body of the continent after they have read his or her work. There are still many subjects in Africa that have not been exhaustively discussed, and this means there is still enough to direct research towards them. More importantly, Pan-Africanism must always be a centre of attraction for any scholarship, and this must be a legacy left behind by intellectuals who would be taking the baton from us.
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